Dobbs: I am a principal at SmithGroup. I am currently working on a project for The Smithsonian called the Old Patent Office Building in which two galleries -- the National Gallery of Art and the National Portrait Gallery -- will be housed. We are enclosing a 28,000-square-foot courtyard in a curved glass and steel roof, and putting in a new 28,000-square-foot granite floor in that space. Just prior to that, I was working on the National Museum of the American Indian, on which I was the project manager and project designer for SmithGroup in a partnership with Jones and Jones of Seattle and Polshek Partnership in New York.

Rollman: I am also a principal and specialize in commercial office buildings and high-rise residential buildings. I also have a background in interiors and educational work and some retail design. Currently, I am a studio leader and head of design for the workplace and residential studio in SmithGroup's Washington, DC, office.

Urbanek: I lead the design in SmithGroup's Detroit office, primarily for research and learning. Some of my recent projects include some small environment projects, one of which is in Indian Springs and uses ashlar limestone. We are also working with the University of Michigan, where we are adding on to a 1946 building with a limestone pit floor. [Also], we are just finishing up the computer science building at Michigan Tech University, which is using quite a bit of Black Vermont slate.

SW: Overall, how often does the firm use stone in its work?

Urbanek: It depends on the types of projects we are doing. We do a lot of institutional projects for higher education, government and cultural institutions, so we use a fair amount of stone. A lot of our buildings are masonry buildings that might have limestone trim and such on them, but we do have occasion to use a lot more, as we have seen recently. We are presently doing the addition with Michael Graves for the Detroit Institute of Art, which is an all-white Vermont stone building. With institutional buildings, you are trying to build a building that will last for 50 years, and so stone is certainly a material that suits the purpose.

Rollman: I'd say on the commercial side, almost all of our buildings use stone. A lot of our work is in downtown Washington, DC, and Washington is really a white stone city. There is an abundance of Indiana limestone. We typically use natural stone on the base of the building -- on the ground floor where the building meets the street -- where the pedestrian would really see and touch the building. We frequently use stone on water tables and bases, and then we design some buildings that are all stone. Right now, we are doing a building with the Shakespeare Theater and the International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftsworkers in collaboration with Diamond Schmidt of Toronto, and that building is going to be all French limestone. We had initially selected ground face CMU [Concrete Masonry Unit], but the Union said that they want their members to come and see the highest use of the craft, so they want a stone building. In commercial office buildings, we almost always do our interiors in stone -- especially

the floor.

Dobbs: In my experience here at SmithGroup -- as well as with prior firms -- I've used stone tremendously. The most recent large use of stone was on the National Museum of the American Indian for the Smithsonian. We used approximately $25 million worth of it, including labor. The entire exterior is natural stone -- limestone from Minnesota -- and that carries into the building as well as on the walls. The toilet rooms have stone floors and countertops. The entire ground floor of the building as well as all of the main landings in the large atrium space and all of the pathways and plazas on the exterior are a black granite called American Mist.

SW: Can you take me a little through the process of specifying stone? How does it start? Do you start with the idea of color, or from the beginning do you know that this is the type of building that is going to use stone? And then from there, how does it progress to what you actually use?

Urbanek: The easiest way to answer this question is to talk about a few projects where we've looked at stone, and looked at it in a number of different locations. I can tell you about the LS&A building at the University of Michigan. It's a 1946 brick building done in an International style. It has limestone trim around the windows, the doorframes and such, but it is very much a modernist type of expression -- very geometric and crisp. We had to add a penthouse to the roof and a fifth floor. We couldn't match the brick, so we elected to match the stone and build the fifth floor all out of white Indiana limestone. It has a very light feeling, but it is masonry in its fundamentals. We looked at a number of materials for the top. We looked at doing a glass lantern. We looked at doing different sorts of metals and such, and we went through these with the client. Their basic premise at the University of Michigan is that they like the masonry. They like the longevity of the masonry. They've had some problems recently with some metal buildings, and they weren't sure that metal was the right approach to take with a building that is 70 years old. So the limestone, and detailing it to meet 2005 design ideas, seemed to fit very well. It was a collaborative process with the owner, looking at materials and coming up with a solution that everyone thought was the right way to go.

On the Indian Springs Environmental Discovery Center, we used stone in a totally different way. We used a ledgerock limestone out of Fon du Lac, WI. It works very nicely as a natural outcropping. We used it with a copper roof, so you get the lightness of the limestone there, which is tan in color, with the darkness of the copper roof. They work in very nice contrast to each other.

Up at Michigan Tech, we used a combination of slate and a manufactured stone product from Arriscraft of Toronto, which has a whitish color. We were tying into an existing academic building, which interestingly had slate within its curtainwall that was 50 years old. And then, we were tying into the existing library, which was limestone. We were trying to do a slate and limestone building, but we couldn't afford the cost of that, so we went with the Arriscraft and slate on the bottom and the base. We chose the black slate because at Michigan Tech, which is in the upper peninsula of Michigan, they get a tremendous amount of snow. What I was looking to do was to contrast the base of the building with a dark material. We looked at a number of brick pieces, but it just didn't seem to fit within that part of the campus. So we matched the slate on the existing building, which was a Vermont slate.

I should say that, in all cases, all three of those projects came in on budget. Bringing a project in on budget is more than the selection of materials; it's everything involved.

SW: Where did that slate come from? Was that also a Vermont slate?

Urbanek: Yes. It is about 2 1⁄ 2 inches thick. It's pretty thick material. They had a little trouble getting it to the site last fall. In Vermont, they had 18 feet of water in their quarry.

Dobbs: For me, the selection of stone usually occurs the way all materials get selected, and that has to do with understanding the concept being developed for the project. The material selection is a supporting effort to the symbology of the building; to what is inspiring to the design of the building -- the direction that it is taking. Then there are other occasions where depending on the context -- where you are and who your client is -- stone gets selected because it is perceived to be a quality level commensurate with how that client perceives themselves. For instance, at a corporate law firm, the lobby is going to use, in all likelihood, what is perceived to be classy, expensive materials and finishes. Stone is often chosen for those reasons.

For me, I like to start with what the concept of the building is trying to be, and then apply materials that are appropriate to the support of that concept.

Rollman: Once we determine what that stone is -- typically color comes up in the very beginning -- then we work directly with a stone subcontractor with whom we have developed a relationship. We have two or three that we work with. They will send us samples, or we will go to their shops and look at the slabs that they have. They may do research overseas and get us more samples. That's kind of how the process starts. It's the basis for specification.

SW: So do you have a broker or distributor that you work with?

Rollman: We typically work more with the subcontractor, who is the installer, and they work with their brokers. Occasionally, we use domestic stones, but we tend to use marble and other more exotic stones.

Dobbs: We have a library filled with hundreds of samples already, so you can get the process going without leaving the office.

Urbanek: I have a good friend who is a stone broker and has been in the business for family generations, so I have sort of an “in” when trying to find different kinds of stone when it is required.

SW: On certain projects, what separates one company from another when choosing stone? Paul, you had mentioned Indiana limestone, and Michael, you had mentioned Minnesota limestone. Those materials are supplied by more than one company, so how do you choose which one? Is it price, ability or a relationship?

Dobbs: For us [working on the National Museum of the American Indian], we went to the quarries in Mankato. We spent three or four days in Minnesota, and we toured two facilities to see what their capabilities were as well as what the material was. They both are on the same basic vein of stone that runs through that part of the state, but they are far enough apart that the aesthetic qualities of the stone -- particularly the color -- are a bit different from one to another. That was one deciding factor.

Both of these companies are not only quarriers, but they are also fabricators, and it is not normally that way. Normally, you go to quarry, they just cut out blocks, and then they send it to someone else who cuts them up to create the sizes and shapes that you need.

Mankato Kasota Stone has been around for about 150 years, and when you tour their shop, it looks it. It's wonderful. They have the same old machines that their grandfathers and great-grandfathers had, and they are very proud of that. They are proud that they use the same old craftsmanship and the Old World quality -- paying attention to detail and the manual aspects of what they do.

Vetter Stone Co., on the other hand, was started in the 1950s or 1960s, and the brothers that started the firm all had sons, and those sons all went into the business. They invested in the state-of-the-art Italian computer-driven machines.

SW: How about in Indiana? I have seen the shops there, and there seems to be that same kind of dichotomy of companies. Some have state-of-the-art equipment and others do a lot of work by hand.

Urbanek: I have noticed in a lot of cases, economics [is a deciding factor]. It is going to go out to bid, and a certain firm is going to get the work in a lot of the university projects. You have to understand that rationale. But also, I think you look at each quarry or each supplier and their ability to deliver consistency; to deliver timeliness; and to deliver the level of detail that is going to be required. If you are putting up stone that has a lot of shaping to it, with each piece numbered and ornately done, there is much more concern about the craftsmen who will be providing that stone. Whereas if you are looking at doing a belt course of the bullnose every 5 feet, you will be a little less critical of the craftsmen who are putting it together; maybe someone who has higher-tech machinery might be a better solution. So, you look at the job and go from there.

We look at the nuances of each stone and what it does in terms of appearance. I can talk specifically about the slate with the Michigan Tech project. We looked at slate quarries in Pennsylvania and Vermont. We wanted to go with a domestic stone because the University felt more comfortable that way, and the stone was readily available. In the end, the Vermont stone seemed to be the right material for what we were looking to do aesthetically.

Rollman: Our specification is the beginning, but we really rely on our local relationships. In our projects on the commercial side, we schedule at least two or three trips overseas to monitor the progress. We are trusting the relationship with the subcontractor and the people on the Italian side, and then we are over there for buying the blocks; for looking at each slab; and then for laying out the pattern. So, we are very involved in the process.

SW: You work on a broad range of project types. Are there certain types of owners or administrators who want to be more involved in the stone selection? How involved does a client get in selecting the stone?

Rollman: On the commercial side, the client is highly involved. They're traveling back and forth with us to Italy, and it is typically a long process in selecting the materials.

Dobbs: My experience is that everyone is highly involved. I have yet to come across a client who isn't interested in what we are doing, and it is not just for money. It is for the look of the place. They want to be very much a part of the decision-making process.

Urbanek: I think it is interesting for clients. We do this type of work every day, but for many of our clients, it is once in a lifetime. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't pass it up either. I personally encourage that. I think it is great when they want to learn, and I think we learn also.

Rollman: And it is the most fun part of the project, so everyone wants in on it.

SW: What kind of knowledge are you seeing among your clients? Andy, I suppose there are certain developers that you work with who have a little more working knowledge of stone, whereas if someone is only doing it once, you may be playing the role of educator a bit.

Rollman: Absolutely. Developers have a lot of knowledge. A lot of our clients are architects, so they have a great understanding of the profession. We are also doing a lot of repeat work with our clients, so we are learning together.

Dobbs: I find that a lot of clients are knowledgeable within a certain narrow bandwidth. They know what they know, and they know it well, but they have a knee-jerk reaction to what they like and what they think they like. It is a little bit of a challenge to open that up a bit, and say, “You know, we don't have to do polished Italian marble in this lobby, just because you did it on every other project that you've done.” That's a challenge. For the most part, though, the clients that I have seen are [unaware] of what's available out there. They know what they see in the buildings in their neighborhood, so, for example, they may be used to the dark polished materials that we see in office buildings.

Urbanek: I would concur that most of the knowledge of clients is from their environment; what they see every day. I find it very rewarding to show them how to do something a little bit different and let them look at a material in a different manner. For instance, they could be using limestone on a tabletop or on a counter or a floor, or not polishing the marble or the granite. Show them other kinds of things of that nature, so that they start to see the material for what it is instead of an image that you can get off any laminate box.

Dobbs: I did a lobby in Manhattan on the East Side in the '50s called the Architects and Designers (A&D) Building. The knee-jerk reaction was that they wanted to do polished marble or granite in the lobby. This was a through-lobby from Third Avenue all the way through the building to East 58th Street. We showed them a stone called Crab Orchard from Tennessee, and mixed that with banding and borders of green slate from Vermont, with a cleft finish on both of those stones. And of course, they were totally against it. They questioned having such a rough surface. They said that people were going to fall and sue them. But it turned out that the rougher texture actually hid the dirt; was much more inherently non-slip; and required much less maintenance. They have come to absolutely love it, and the colors were totally beyond anything that they ever experienced -- green, yellow and red were just not on their list.

SW: Do you find that your clients are receptive to learning about new materials, or is it challenging to introduce them to new products?

Urbanek: It is a little bit of both. We are working on another project for the University of Michigan with concrete floors, and the client was not very happy or enlightened to the idea. So what we have done is create a banding in the concrete floor with Sierra White granite from Cold Spring [Granite Co.] with a hand-rubbed finish. We did a simple mock-up with pre-cast concrete and showed them how the banding would work. They have come to take that as their own now. It's their floor, which they agreed to and they made, and now it is a nameplate for the design. So, in some ways, you can educate clients in a way that they can see it become something pretty special.

Rollman: On our Terrell Place project, we did it in a subtle way. The palette in the building was cream-colored and muted. There were two components -- a commercial building and a residential building. In the residential building, we used a travertine that wasn't filled, and the finish is sort of rough. It is not a highly polished finish. So it still has a very elegant conservative look, but when you get up to it and really see it and feel it, the texture is very unique and modern.

SW: We have talked a little bit about budget and using stone in a cost-effective manner. What are some of the ways in which you are able to do that as architects?

Dobbs: One way is to finish the stone as little as possible. We have gone to such extremes as to use granite boulders as part of the architecture -- literally picking them out of the ground and placing them on the construction site. At Vetter's quarry, I believe we showed them a new use for one of their materials that they normally threw away. When they open up a new part of the quarry, they blow off the dirt, the trees and the bushes with dynamite. The first material that is exposed has been saturated for millions of years with water and mineral-rich soils, and it is has a “rusty” appearance. It has incredible iron oxide and stains, and they thought it was sub-grade material that nobody would want. They would slice it off and throw it away. We used it -- without touching it -- on the base of our building in the largest blocks that they could cut out of the ground. Some of those blocks were 1,500 or 1,600 mm long and about 1 meter high, and in some cases, 400 mm thick, which is 16 inches. These are massive stones that weigh tons.

Urbanek: I've used Fon du Lac limestone probably about half a dozen times now, and Fon du Lac is part of the Niagra Escarpment, which comes out like shale or slate in layers, and the layers are priced in three different manners. The stone on top gets, as Mike said, the weathering from millions of years. The limestone has a little bit of iron oxide in it, so it will rust out. The stone that's on top or on the edges of the crevices and such is a nice soft brown color, and it is weathered because it has been moved around over those millions of years. That's the most expensive stone that they have. And then as you cut back, you will find the grayer stone underneath, which is the typical color of the stone in its prime sense. This is a lesser cost. And then, when they get to the middle of the shale ledge, they are breaking it off in chunks and it is a darker gray. So you end up with three price ranges of the stone, and the pieces on the edges are the most expensive. What I have been able to do over the years is learn a little about how to make it economical. The way to do it is to create a blend of the three types of stones and use as little as you can of the most expensive stone and as much as you can of the least expensive stone, but still get a coursing that helps lean it towards the softer beiger colors of the expensive stone. So in doing that, I think the mix looks better than buying all of the most expensive stone, and you can get a very nice randomness to it.

I think that if economics are important, you have to minimize the amount of labor shaping of the stone. We use the slate and other materials that cleft. You try to cleft it, cut it and put it on a wall.

Rollman: On Terrell Place, one way that we value-engineered was that we went to a thinner stone on the floor. We went from 3 cm to 1 cm, and used a crack isolation membrane to help reduce cracking. On the exterior of the building, we did stone on a pre-cast backing. We priced two different finishes of pre-cast versus stone, and it was only a little bit more money to use natural stone. It was very thin, and we casted it into the concrete.

Dobbs: Right now on a project we are looking at a stone called Norwegian Blue granite. In order to keep the price down, we are working with the quarry. They have Grade A, B and C blocks, and we are trying to play both sides against the middle. We are using a Grade B block and asking them to cull more of the finer material. It's turning out that even though there is more waste involved, they can use that waste for other projects. It can be ground into gravel or other products. That's actually turning out to cost less, so we are getting Grade A quality tiles out of Grade B blocks by being more aggressive about the editing, and how they decide what to cut.

Urbanek: When looking at economics [for three-dimensional stonework], you start looking at what size blocks you can get. You look at what size pieces seem to be the most easily fabricated, and there might be the potential to work around a size that is easily made. Then you can gain some economic value.

SW: How do you go about finding newly introduced materials on the market? Are you visited very often by stone vendors or people representing quarries? How do you build your stone library?

Rollman: We tend to start off with sort of tried and true [stone materials] and go from there, but it's a lot of work. Web sites have helped a lot. I have been using those a lot lately -- looking at different ideas and different colors. But we still rely on our subcontractors.

Dobbs: We have been finding stone from countries that normally you wouldn't look at -- Mexico, South America, China. There are other places in the world where there is less activity and that people haven't seen.

For a water feature we did recently, we had to find a material that would live well in and out of water on a constant basis -- freezing, thawing, wet, dry. We needed a stone that would be dense enough not to suck up the water and spall the face off. It took two years to find a material called Golden Sand in Mexico. Then the problem became, “How do you get it?” There was no broker. They wouldn't even give you a sample; you had to buy the whole block. But you work through all those things. This Norwegian stone, for instance, is the

first job where we are using a stone from a Northern European locale. It was always Italy and the U.S.

Also, a lot has to do with the distributor. If you go to some of the suppliers in New York, those people know everything there is to know on the planet. You go to a little shop in Washington, DC, and you are going to get the 15 granites and marbles that have been [typically] used in residential and corporate lobbies.

Urbanek: As I mentioned earlier, a long-time friend of mine is a marble broker. He used to have his own marble fabrication shop. Not only does he know marble, but he also knows granite, slate, limestone and other materials. So, I have an outlet there. I just call him, and we start chatting, and he'll put me in touch with different quarries, and we get some samples, and we'll go from there.

SW: These days the stone industry is trying, at least in theory, to be more conscientious in working with architects. At some of the industry trade shows, we are seeing seminars with names like “Selling to Architects.” What are some things that the stone industry can do to better serve the architectural community?

Rollman: I think a better clearing house for dimensional stone is needed. There is a lot of information out there for tiles and countertops, but there should be more that deals with cut-to-size pieces for building stone. I think that would be very useful.

Dobbs: I would find it to be incredibly helpful if I were able to get more advice from experienced stone people on appropriate thicknesses, setting beds, joint sizes and on accessories -- pins, anchors, wires, clips, L-shaped, W-shaped, stainless steel, galvanized. There is an enormous number of things that we as architects have to specify, draw, detail and figure out structurally, engineering-wise, and, for some reason, I find a reluctance coming from the stone industry to help us with that. They don't want to commit. I guess they feel like they are taking responsibility if they tell you the best way to do it.

Urbanek: The concrete industry has the National Concrete Institute; the brick industry has theirs; the masonry industry has theirs. They all offer some kind of technical advice, and I agree that it is tough to find that with stone. A lot of times, we are relying on the person that is putting it up in the field to give us the best way of doing something, or the person who is fabricating it.

One of your questions was what kind of practical lessons have you learned. One of mine is listen to those guys who have been doing it for 100 years.

It is funny, we had all this high-tech connectivity of the slate up at Michigan Tech -- all these specialized fabricated connections and T-slots. Part of the building is on a huge arch, and we were trying to go around the arch, and the pins of the slate sitting on top of one another would not line up, and when they did line up, the slate fronts weren't lined up. Then this older worker said, “You know, what do you have all this stuff for? Let's just do it the old way and use stainless steel wire. I'll get it all straight for you.” He did a mock-up in an afternoon, and it was 100 times better than anything we had anywhere else.

SW: Do architects look at the Marble Institute of America as a source of information?

Rollman: We have their book in our library, and I have used it on most projects. I find if you have a question, technical support is important either face-to-face or on the telephone with a technical rep.

Dobbs: I use it, but it is only a starting point. Every job has different conditions, and you have questions. There is so much out there to know, and each condition requires a different approach. We usually do pretty well as architects in setting out a set of principles and specifications, and we know upon whom to lay the responsibilities for the various roles -- the engineering and the quality of the work. But when you are putting a set of drawings together, it is always very comforting to know that your details are right.

SW: We talked about some practical lessons learned from using stone. Do you have anything else to share here -- positive or negative?

Urbanek: We did a church [addition] a while ago using Fon du Lac ledgerock. We were trying to match the existing church, which was small. The new church was about five times the size as the existing, but they wanted to use the same material. So, that was my first time using Fon du Lac limestone in the ledgerock capacity. The existing church had everything running horizontal as the ledgerock, except these large panels of the same stone that were roughly 2 feet vertical by about 18 inches horizontal. We did our drawings and elevations, and our specifications said to put these large panels of stone in randomly. Well, 100 years ago, stonemasons knew what “random” was, but in this period of time, we are not random people. We are a very orderly people, and we try to take randomness out of things. So when you go look at this church today, you see that these random stones are very much in a pattern. It was just the way that they put them up. They didn't do it on purpose, but they just got into a system and this is how it happened. I talked to one of the stonemasons, and I said, “This doesn't look random at all.” And he said, “You know, the only way you can do that is to change your stone team every day, and it will be random.” I learned a lesson.

Rollman: I'd say for me the lesson usually comes from the fact that stone is a natural material. This Terrell Place project was a classic case of picking material from a 1-foot x 1-foot sample. We went over to Italy, and we saw something very different.

I think there is a lesson in the risk that you take in selecting a stone that has a large range.

Dobbs: I learned a pretty good lesson: never ever use unsealed stone in a bathroom -- ever.

Urbanek: The lesson that I have learned over time is that if someone tells you that you can't afford stone, I wouldn't just stop there. We have done a number of projects in stone where people thought at the most they would get brick. If you do it right, and it is part of the overall architectural concept, it can be made to work. You just have to understand what you are doing and work at it. You already know that per square foot, [stone] is a material that takes a lot of energy to get on the face of a building. So there is a cost associated with that. But once it's up there, it is absolutely beautiful.

Dobbs: Following what was said earlier about the older [stonemason] who knew just what to do with a problem, I've learned when to listen to the experts. Just because our specification or detail says a stone has to be 37 1⁄2 mm thick, it doesn't necessarily mean it is right. Also, it doesn't mean that it is cheaper than a 50-mm-thick stone. We have discovered that sometimes, if stone is fragile and there is a potential for breakage during shipping, a thicker material will cost you less than thinner material. Thicker stone also makes installation easier because slots can be cut more easily in a thicker material. And, we discovered that it is cheaper to do more rather than less. So, I've learned to listen.

Rollman: I also want to highlight some of the unique ways that we have used stone -- one of which is the [National Academy of Sciences in Washington, DC], where we worked with Larry Kirkland, the artist. He conceived a story about science in research in the lobby. There was a method of applying rubber to the wall, and that was used as the template for sandblasting. He used an acid dye to fill in and create these dark patterns. This I think is a unique way of finishing stone -- it's not just polished or honed. It actually becomes a piece of art.

SW: What type of stone is that?

Rollman: There are two kinds. There is a Spanish limestone on the side walls and then there is a Canadian granite on the back wall.

SW: And this was done like traditional sandblasting like you would do for a memorial but on a large scale?

Rollman: Exactly, and he use figures in lieu of text.

SW: How much do you supervise the installation of a project? Do you have to go to a site often, or does it vary from project to project?

Urbanek: We try to do mock-ups all the time -- especially when it comes to stone. That is one of the prime things that we are really adamant about. We want as large as a mock-up as we can, so we can avoid a lot of back and forth. Some projects require us to be out there more than others depending on the complexity, but I would say that one of the things that we try to do very much is get that mock-up.

Rollman: Even though my jobs tend to be local, I agree with that. Once a mock-up is done, and you see the way the project is going, we may go to the site for our own interest, but we don't feel it is our responsibility to manage or inspect. We are observing to make sure that it is being installed as approved.

Dobbs: It depends on the job. Some jobs will go the way Andy suggests, and others require much more intensity. It all depends on what you've asked them to do. If what you have asked them to do is complicated in an installation sense, then you have committed yourself now to go there to make sure that they are doing it right. The mock-up may not catch all conditions. On the American Indian Museum, we did a one-and-a-half-story-tall, 30-foot-long, full-scale mock-up, with every condition that we could think of in the building. It cost $500,000 to do the mock-up, and it stood there for months. We ripped it apart and put it back together again [repeatedly], and we got it just so, and I was on site every day for three years after that.

SW: Once a stone installation is completed, who if anyone comes up with a maintenance plan? Is that something that involves architects?

Rollman: It does to a certain extent. The building owners downtown [in Washington, DC] typically work with a restoration contractor like Stuart Dean, and they will do the final finish on the stone and maintain it. It is an involved and expensive process, but necessary.

Dobbs: We've been including in our specification requirements for the contractor that supplies the material to supply a maintenance procedure for the floor, and they balk at that. Again, they don't want to take responsibility for something that they don't feel that they are going to do -- there's a liability issue. That seems to be at the bottom line for everybody these days. We have taken industry standard suggestions and put them into our specifications. The problem is that unless you get a professional company to do it and get your client to understand that it is the right way to do it, you will end up with what we have with one of our large clients. They have their own maintenance people, and no matter what you say, no matter what manuals, no matter what products you tell them to buy, they wax the floor with a big buffer. It doesn't matter, and if it is unsealed and you don't want wax on it, they wax the floor. [Maintenance] is a really important thing, and I think that the maintenance company approach is the best.

SW: What would you say is the most challenging aspect in working with the stone industry as opposed to other industries such as tile, carpet or wood?

Rollman: If you look at the manufacturers of tile and carpet, they tend to push us. They are constantly introducing us to new materials. They are constantly pushing the envelope -- especially with sustainability. Also, [they need to be] coming up with a better way of introducing a product to us -- especially in dimensional cut stone. Porcelain tile is really hot right now. There is a lot of condo work going on. So we have plenty of catalogs. We also use a lot of stone, but it is just much more difficult to find out about new products.

Dobbs: It has its positive side and negative side. The idea of the small craftsman going out [to a project] with the manual hand experience and the “love of the earth” aspect of it going away is sad. And yet, being able to say, “I want a Grade A, Number Two finish,” and knowing what you are supposed to get -- as you do with stainless steel -- would be helpful to a large extent.